The quality of the modern student

[Phidippides]

As I prepare to start teaching in the Fall semester, I have been hearing some "horror stories" about students from others who teach classes (though "horror" is a bit overkill).  These are basically about students who talk back, those who more or less demand special privileges, and don't want to be confined by the rules the teacher sets out for the semester.  They want to make up missed tests when they want, or turn in homework late.  Oh, and to top it off, they're not always that good at learning the material. 

So, is there something to this?  The students I'm referring to are college-age students, but the same might be said of older high schoolers as well.  Is this a problem unique to our own time, and if so, what has led to it?  Has our entitlement-driven society created a class of people who think they are deserving without putting in the time and effort?

[Vulture6]

In my rather limited experience working with high schoolers and college age young men and women, I find that they'll test the boundaries.  If you draw a line in the sand, they'll approach it, look around, and step over it - if for no other reason than to see what will happen and see if they can get away with it.  From experience, they learn that they can get away with it and not face any consequences, and as a result, they will continue to push boundaries and expand them.  Thus, when they do finally face consequences, it is a somewhat new experience and they will seek to argue their case and push the boundaries. 

Again, from my experience, if you set the boundaries up front, set expectations and let them know that there are NO exceptions, and then hold firm - allowing no wiggle room and no sympathies, they will, by and large, respect not only your boundaries but will respect you as well.  However, if you make one exception, then your credibility is blown.

As an outgrowth from the late sixties and the seventies, we've built a culture of "I'm special" and "the rules don't apply to me" and "everything is just so unfair" - just look at the latest from Lindsy Lohan (released from jail approximately two weeks into a 90 day sentence and sent to rehab) -- or closer to where I live, Albert Haynesworth and the Washington Redskins.

I believe that most of these young adults are actively seeking boundaries and will respect them when they know that they are for real.

I think the real "horror" will be discovering that many of your college students write like 9th graders!!!

[Phidippides]

So what you're saying is that they lack discipline because discipline has not been impressed upon them.  I agree with that.

I'm guessing that schools are also not teaching students about how they are supposed to conduct their scholarship.  I just saw this rather interesting article from the NYT (excerpt):

At DePaul University, the tip-off to one student?s copying was the purple shade of several paragraphs he had lifted from the Web; when confronted by a writing tutor his professor had sent him to, he was not defensive ? he just wanted to know how to change purple text to black.

Plagiarism Lines Blur for Students in Digital Age

This reminded me of something that happened a few years ago in the capstone class for my MBA program.  I had to do a group project with about four others and each of us was responsible for a different section.  One guy turned in his section to me, and when I read through it I found that he had lifted text directly from web sources and put it into his work.  Even though he may have cited where he got it from, I still had to spend time paraphrasing his text so that it was academically-suitable.  I don't think he was trying to be sneaky about it, and he was not a stupid person; I just think he didn't know that he shouldn't do that.  But it amazed me that someone could get to the very last class in an MBA program and not know that you can't copy and paste text and use it as part of your paper, unless you're specially designating it (e.g. in quotes).  It just seemed like a fundamental mistake to me.

[donroc]

I taught high school 1959-61 at Los Gatos in California and 1967-1987 in L.A., and I was an adjunct professor of writing for those who did not pass the state tests at Polk Community College in Florida aka for the immature the 13th grade.

I have taught AP European History, US and World History, Ctreative Writing and 11th grade English. When I began teaching, a boy could get in trouble for chewing gum, needing a shave or haircut, having a shirt tail out, and punishment was a paddling. If two boys wanted to fight, the coaches accomodated them by having them put on the gloves and go three rounds.

I saw a steady decline in the preparation of students over those years. When I began in 1967 at Fairfax in L.A., 85% went on to college. 20 years later when I left, of those who entered in the 10th grade, 75% graduated.

Academically, the best schools in the L.A. school district became similar to the economy of a 3rd world nations. The brightest and hardworking overachievers declined in number relative to the growth of semi-literate uninterested and unmotivated pupils. After my hiatus from teaching, I found the abundance of cellular phones, texting, and iphones to be more important than what any professor had to say.

The decline in my opinion has been caused by too many factors.

1. The breakdown in discipline caused mostly by fear of ACLU lawsuits.
2. Parents who expect their children to go on to college are more concerned about their kids getting good grades rather than learning (who gets the Ds and Fs at the big university? one may ask)
3. Too much middle management of curricula.
4. Anti-intellectualism in the public schools and teaching departments at the Universities -- emphasis on making the student feel good rather than teaching them subject matter and critical thinking. At Fairfax, our department, of which I was chair voted not to accept any ST from UCLA until they changed their methods -- to quote the Ed Dept Chairman, "I find that those who teach subject matter are more heartless in dealing with students' needs."
5. Women's Lib -- bright women can now become professionals, CEOs, whereas in the past they went into teaching in greater numbers. Not enough good teachers coming into the classrooms. A Sociology major, PE major, Econ Major, cannot adequately teach solid U.S. History.
6. U.S. History was a year class when I took it in high school 1947-8, a year course when my parents took it, and a year course when I taught it. It needs to be taught each semester.
7. If any child is afraid to go to the bathroom, find another school -- which leads to --
8. A combination of parents who can afford it or will sacrifice sending their kids to private or parochial school plus an influx of non-English speaking students who may or may not attend regularly.
9. Power of teachers' unions who defend the worst teachers "to the death" -- by the way, hve you ever heard of a union going on strike when a teacher is assaulted and demanding safe schools?
10. Parents uninvolved, plus too much TV and video games.

I might add there are some great public schools, but you have to look for them. In San Francisco, I attended an elementary school that was attached to San Francisco State Teachers College back in 1938-40 before we moved. We had a master teacher and up to eight student teachers per class. They taught Spanish and gave no letter grades. We could go as fast or slowly in any subject as our IQs allowed.

Later I attended one of the great academic public high schools in the USA, Lowell in San Francisco also the oldest west of the Missippi. Today, nearly all their classes are AP.

Sorry about the extensive rant -- and I could write pages on the subject.

[skiguy]

I just think he didn't know that he shouldn't do that. 

I would question that. Colleges, universities, writing manuals, etc. make it PERFECTLY CLEAR that is unacceptable.

[DonaldBaker]

I would think once you are at the college level, you let the students do what they want.  If they want to learn, great, if not, they don't have to attend class, and nobody can make them.  You can try to create a participation component of your class to encourage their contribution, but outside of this, they are adults and their final grade is the consequences.

[Phidippides]

I taught high school 1959-61 at Los Gatos in California and 1967-1987 in L.A., and I was an adjunct professor of writing for those who did not pass the state tests at Polk Community College in Florida aka for the immature the 13th grade.

Donroc, that's an impressive list of factors, and thanks for sharing.  I imagine you taught during a time when changes in the classroom were all-too apparent, when schools underwent some of their most significant changes during the 20th century.

I would question that. Colleges, universities, writing manuals, etc. make it PERFECTLY CLEAR that is unacceptable.

You could be right.  He just didn't seem like the cheating type to me.  Perhaps he was just being lazy (I know, that's no excuse at all).  Unfortunately for me, I was the one who had to spend time fixing his work.

[donroc]

Phidippides, yes, those were the years when the great changes and decline in Public Education began except for the proliferation of AP courses for the academic elite. Of interest, my brightest students also were film literate. Over 15 years, 95% of my AP European History students passed, with 2/3 of them earning 4s and 5s.

I taught at Fairfax in West Hollywood while waiting for a turning point in my writing career that failed to turn significantly, and a significant minority at the school included showbiz kids -- actors (Tim Hutton, Demi Moore, Michelle Greene), musicians, children of actors, directors, cameramen, etc and too many no talent wannabees. Heavy drug use among the students. Some of us on the faculty worked in film and TV, and one teacher sold her lyrics.

Some who passed through my classroom -- Barry Miller, who earned an A, and Kiedis and Flea (Balzary) from Red Hot Chili Peppers. Tony was bright and earned A's each semester, but Balzary worked at the bare minimum.

I also saw a decline in the quality and preparation of teachers.

Relating to this site, I created an independent study class called Conflict Simulations. It began when I sponsored a club that met at noon to play the board game Diplomacy.My students told me it helped them learn Geography. About that time, the Magazine Strategy and Tactics came out with a war game in each issue. The Principal, not a coach but a Social Studies Major, let me teach a class in sumer school. To make a long story a bit shorter, it became so successful, I taught it as Geography I&II with two class each semester. The students selected a war game from tactical to grand strategy, played it, then had to write a research paper that included the following:

1. Origins of the conflict
2. Answering the question: could diplomacy better applied have prevented it?
3. Compare and contrast the real conflict with the outcome in class.
4. How many dead bodies did it take to achieve the objective
5. Describe your and historic "military stupidity."
6. Was the war worth it?"
7. Final thoughts.

Two games and papers/semester -- antiwar students had their beliefs reinforced -- at least three of my former students are career colonels in the military, and because the quality of the school population declined beyond repair, I ended the classes after 11 years.

[garbanzo]

Well I went to college for 5 years about 4 years ago for engineering and about half my classmates were over the age of 30, I was friendly with almost everybody there, and we would often go out for beer & wings with our instructors so I think it's safe to say we had a good rapport which really made a positive experience for me as well as for them. I am hoping my time spent in university will be as positive an experience.

As far as on the individual level I think some young people are there for reasons that they value and want to succeed so even if from time to time they procrastinate on homework etc. they will still attend classes and try to do well. On the other hand there are lots of students (not necessarily bad people mind you) that chronically procrastinate and try and fluff through with other people's work and maybe they don't want to be there (maybe their parents expect them to do something they might not feel comfortable doing).

As an instructor I don't have much experience other than teaching a few primers to traffic modeling software and CAD but I suppose that instructors have to be patient, adaptable, and at the same time have to have some rigidity (referring to somebody else that posted something about 'drawing a line in the sand' which I found very appropriate).

[Phidippides]

Garbanzo, I am guessing that the positive experiences you have had with your instructor and classmates was in upper-level classes.  I have had similar experiences in my graduate classes, which have been enjoyable both from an academic perspective and academic-social perspective.  That brings up a relevant point - as students get nearer to their completion of studies, they may take a more active interest in their chosen field of study.

Donroc, very interesting to hear about your past students.  Perhaps you have helped fundamentally shape some of their views which have entered into their work.

[donroc]

Donroc, very interesting to hear about your past students.  Perhaps you have helped fundamentally shape some of their views which have entered into their work.

Not some of RHCP's antics, I trust. Most of the time we never know the effect we have. I receive many positive surprises from students whose names I have forgotten when they contact me on facebook. If that site never existed, I would not know about it.

Also, with rare exceptions, their political beliefs have remained the same over the decades. I taught in the district Henry Waxman now represents.

[Notch]

Not sure this is relevant, but felt the need to share... I am 44 and and just going to college... I went for one semester after high school and HATED it... so I joined the US Army (go figure)... I took a few classes while in the Army, but they were computer classes and not very structured as far as regular college classes.

I'm not going because of need. I want to go and choose History because it is a field I have an interest in and I believe that by pursuing a degree in something I find enjoyable rather than one that I feel I would need to succeed in life would make the whole experience less "traumatic". I also wanted to better myself and actually be knowledgeable about a specific subject and wanted the foundation required for that knowledge.

All that being said I believe I would not be your typical student. And I think a lot of older students fit that same mold of being there for the learning aspect.

But to go along with that, my situation is difficult because I have never been formally schooled on the whole "college" thing (writing papers, essays, etiquette, etc.) So I am bringing life events in with little school-knowledge.

All this being said I wish that in high school they had pushed harder to prepare a person for college rather than just get us through with just the minimum requirements instead of pushing harder for us to really take classes and get the tools needed to further education.

I know so far my experience has been enlightening, and I can certainly tell the difference between the fresh out of high school kids and the younger folks who are just there to get a piece of paper and move on in comparison to the adults who want to really learn the subject matter (not that all younger kids aren't there to learn, it just seems like most are breezing their way through with the bare minimum to pass).

I couldn't be a teacher. Even when I get my degree, the focus will not be to teach. I think that takes a special person with the right desires to do that profession properly. So, I hope it works out for you and you end up that teacher that both the younger and older person looks back and remembers as one who taught them well and truly facilitated their learning.

[skiguy]

Good post, notch!

[Wally]

Good post, notch!

I agree.

[Phidippides]

Well I had my first day of classes today (as instructor and student).  In the survey class I'm teaching, I have about 110 students (though I'm not sure how many actually showed up today).  But it was great.  I'm looking forward to the semester.