- This topic has 7 voices and 12 replies.
October 10, 2007 at 2:27 am #883WallyParticipant
Having pulled the plug on my CL account I can't comment on the current discussion of faith alone being enough for salvation (w/o good works); seems to me this was one of the gripes Luther had in the first place. What about the old and poor that cannot (thru not fault of their own) cannot do the good works some would require? faith and the acceptance of Chris should turn the trick, or so I was taught.Comments?WallyOctober 10, 2007 at 3:53 am #10033
I would think that intent to do good works would be sufficient, as the act itself cannot always be accomplished. It's actually my understanding that the disagreement among Protestants and Catholics that revolved around the faith alone/faith & works issue has basically been resolved. Perhaps this is not true on the level of each individual, but theologically the sides have found that they believe essentially the same thing (this is according to what I have heard and read).October 10, 2007 at 8:41 am #10034
You can't earn your salvation. It is given to you by God. You have nothing to do with it. Good works is how you can tell if you are actually saved. (that's what I believe anyway)October 10, 2007 at 3:22 pm #10035WallyParticipant
Understood; isn't, however, faith and acceptance of Christ enough to get the gift?Yes... I also understand that the evidence of salvation (ala Calvinism) has been the good works and success that one displays in life (family, church, community). Hence, the very fact that one has / displays faith must therefore be the evidence of salvation, eh?October 11, 2007 at 4:34 am #10036DonaldBakerParticipant
You can't earn your salvation. It is given to you by God. You have nothing to do with it. Good works is how you can tell if you are actually saved. (that's what I believe anyway)
I am of similar thought, but perhaps a bit more Calvinist in some things.January 22, 2008 at 11:51 pm #10037
It's actually my understanding that the disagreement among Protestants and Catholics that revolved around the faith alone/faith & works issue has basically been resolved.
Are you sure about that?? The issue of sacraments (leading to salvation) still seems like a hot button issue between Catholics and Protestants even to this day.January 23, 2008 at 12:14 am #10038
Well, perhaps I made too broad of a statement. Still, take a look at The Lutheran World Federation site on Lutheran/Catholic discussion on theological issues, or the JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church (too long to read in a few minutes, but you get the point).I remember also having heard and/or read about a conference between Catholics and some Protestants (perhaps Lutherans) from some time in the 1990s where I believe they essentially agreed that they were meaning the same thing in regards to faith and works, but they were using different language. I don't have the specifics on this, though.January 23, 2008 at 1:19 am #10039
That is correct. I think many of the modern so-called Protestant denominations (Episcopal, Lutheran, and others) aren't really..well…Protestant because they are so similar to each other and to the Catholic denominations. I sort of think that the Anabaptists and Quakers fit more the definition of Protestant than the other ones I mentioned.January 23, 2008 at 1:39 am #10040
I think that the Episcopalians are closer to the Catholics to begin with since they're related to the Anglicans, who seem to have broken off later than the other Protestant groups….under Henry VIII, I think. IMO the Church of England has been more closely aligned with the Catholic Church to begin with.January 23, 2008 at 3:12 am #10041
IMO the Church of England has been more closely aligned with the Catholic Church to begin with.
I agree.January 24, 2008 at 2:19 am #10042DonaldBakerParticipant
Of course, the liturgy of the Anglican Church is exactly the same as the RCC. The only reason it was formed was so Henry the Eighth could have his divorces. 🙂February 28, 2010 at 10:16 pm #10043willyDParticipant
Predestination–the elect–no good works necessary–pure Calvinism and anathema to Catholics.February 26, 2012 at 4:20 pm #10044zephyr4434Participant
I actually wrote some summaries of the Protest Reformation here:http://www.learnerator.com/ap-european-history/study-center/summaries/protestant-reformationNot sure if that helps, but I think its a nice overview.February 27, 2012 at 10:10 pm #10045NotchParticipant
Here is the problem with works… by saying that works are required for SALVATION you are in no fewer words saying that Jesus' statement “It is finished” and his death and ressurection were not suffiecient to atone for your sins. Ergo, you claim that you have some sort of stock in your own salvation. You don't. The bible is pretty clear on this.Works without faith is pointless. Faith without works is impossible. If you TRULY have faith, the Holy Spirit will instill the desire and fortitude for works on your behalf.Works, as I see it presented by scripture, is strictly positional in the presence of the Lord. The crowns we toss at our saviours feet will be given to us by Christ and then adorned with jewels in relation to our works. We are saved without works. R.C. Sproul has a done a GREAT deries on predestination and the elect. If you get a chance, visit Ligonier Ministries and seearch for it. Very bibilical and insightful.