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January 7, 2010 at 6:57 pm #1866January 8, 2010 at 4:48 pm #17960
I don't think that Western Civilization as a whole will fall in the next few hundred years, but the biggest threat to Western Civ in Europe is Muslim migration into the continent. As birth rates decline in Europe, there is a need for labor to support the aging classes and to help maintain levels of living that Europeans are accustomed to. Cheap labor is found in countries in Africa and the East. As these immigrants continue to reproduce at a higher rate than native Europeans, they will eventually rival their hosts in numbers and influence. Unlike Western Civilization, which is rather open and welcoming to people outside its value system, Muslim culture is not nearly as open and welcoming of ideas outside its parameters. I'm not making a value judgment, just stating what seems to be an objective fact when we consider how Muslim culture is much more guarded and less permissive than Western Civ. This means that Western Civ will dissolve in Europe and be replaced over the long term.January 9, 2010 at 12:32 am #17961DonaldBakerParticipant
Whatever the fate of the West may be, its mark will remain on whatever replaces it via technology, legal traditions, political structures, and religion (namely Christianity).January 9, 2010 at 2:28 am #17962
Whatever the fate of the West may be, its mark will remain on whatever replaces it via technology, legal traditions, political structures, and religion (namely Christianity).
That brings up a good point that I'll pose as a different thread topic.January 9, 2010 at 8:53 am #17963
I am starting to think that Western Civilization will not be outbred by immigrants from other cultures. I think within the next 20-30 years a tipping point will be reached and we will see a war. It will be a war that makes the barbarity of WWII pale in comparison. We are already starting to see shades of this in some of the far-right groups in Europe that are beginning to appeal to a broader segment of the population. It is now a race in my view. A race between so-called progressives that despise their birth culture and those that want to preserve it. In the here and now the progressives apparently have the upper hand, but that could easily change, especially if things continue as they are. It is a question of timing, and I don't know the answer to that question. The problem could be solved soon with a minimum of violence or later with lots. Either way, I see a solution to the problem, if it is a problem, coming eventually.Keep in mind, that I am not advocating anything here, just presenting the way I see things playing out.January 9, 2010 at 3:47 pm #17964DonaldBakerParticipant
As Newt Gingrich stated, we are already in the phony war stage of World War III which will be a war between East and West…a cultural/ideological/religious war. The War on Terror is the catalyst that will ignite it.January 9, 2010 at 4:22 pm #17965
As Newt Gingrich stated, we are already in the phony war stage of World War III which will be a war between East and West...a cultural/ideological/religious war. The War on Terror is the catalyst that will ignite it.
Phony war between West and East, I agree about that. However how far East do you go ? Middle East or Far East ? What's the real threat ? I'd specifically say Far East and China but not only.Asia is totally different in religious, cultural, historical, political matters.The Middle East, Muslim world in general, seems to be a close menace but how many of these countries have the political or the military ability to challenge us ? Few if none. (Iran is trying) Not even talking about about philosophy or religion.At the contrary Asia is much more dangerous: check your belongings without a Made in China label, remember the satellite shooting(1), the last climate summit, population level, nationalism, economics(2), etc...When you look at the Chinese's neighbouring countries, all fear China but all finally follow. (ASEAN, North Korea, and ... African states like Sudan (a Muslim state ))The combination of the two is a real danger.(1)http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6289519.stm (2)http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8385752.stmJanuary 9, 2010 at 5:39 pm #17966skiguyModerator
The Middle East, Muslim world in general, seems to be a close menace but how many of these countries have the political or the military ability to challenge us ? Few if none. (Iran is trying) Not even talking about about philosophy or religion.
The military strategy of terrorism has put fear into us...and in that, they have succeeded. But I do agree about China. They may not be an actual threat yet, but they have the capability. I still think the next major war is going to be either economic or over natural resources.January 9, 2010 at 5:52 pm #17967
The military strategy of terrorism has put fear into us...and in that, they have succeeded. But I do agree about China. They may not be an actual threat yet, but they have the capability. I still think the next major war is going to be either economic or over natural resources.
You bet, they've already did ithttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8272506.stmJanuary 9, 2010 at 6:53 pm #17968
The immediate threat is radical Islam but the long range threat is China. Give china 15-20 years and they will be a world power. Unfortunately the west is playing right into their hands by buying anything and everything they make. We are essentially financing our own destruction. For a similar position economically you need look no further than England in the years prior to and during WWI.Of course, Muslims also pose a long range threat through their population growth and birth rate. France is already seeing that with its large Muslim population, but they are not alone, most European countries face the same thing. France is unlucky in that their Muslims are of Algerian extraction and so slightly more radical than those in Germany, Britain is pretty bad off with their large population of Pakistani extraction as well.I still think the existential threat comes from China though, the Muslims can blow up the occasional plane and building but they have proven unable to field effective armies for the past hundred years or so and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Arabs are individually brave but collectively stupid when it comes to the military art. There is a reason that the most successful people at spreading Islam by the sword have been Turks and Persians.January 9, 2010 at 7:34 pm #17969
I still the existential threat comes from China though, the Muslims can blow up the occasional plane and building but they have proven unable to field effective armies for the past hundred years or so and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Arabs are individually brave but collectively stupid when it comes to the military art. There is a reason that the most successful people at spreading Islam by the sword have been Turks and Persians.
I agree with you on the Chinese threat, but I think that the Muslim takeover would more likely come through cultural hegemony than by military force. I think that Western Civilization is actually less threatened by an invading military than by a group which attempts to impose a certain culture enforced by the law.January 9, 2010 at 7:42 pm #17970
Cultural hegemony is the more insidious threat because it is more easily dismissed as a threat. It is difficult not to see someone with a gun as a threat but someone preaching “tolerance or diversity” can sound reasonable and motives are harder to divine than intent.July 8, 2010 at 1:41 am #17971AthenaParticipant
The US will fall as Athens and Rome fell and for the same reasons. Oil is to the US what gold was to Rome. When Rome exhausted its gold supply it developed serious economic problems that lead to the fall. This comes from a 1920 Newspaper. “Given our known supply of oil and rate of consumption, we are headed for economic disaster and possibly war.” Past President Carter was right when he said we need to conserve. The conservation effort should have begun in the 1920 tys, because we never got off the path to economic disaster and war. As for the fall of Athens, that democracy lasted about 200 years, about as long as the US has been a democracy, and our invasion of Iraq, is not so different from Athens military build up and misuse of its military might, for economic reasons, bringing all other Greek city states against Athens, and finally the Spartan occupation of Athens, and the killing of Socrates. In general, the US has consumed its mineral resources and spent its wealth. On top of this, it is destroying its farm land, and lowering its water table faster than it can be refilled. Of course this not special to the US, but thinking life will go on as we have enjoyed it, is not realistic.July 8, 2010 at 8:00 am #17972
But then, what comes after the Fall of the US?March 16, 2014 at 5:25 am #17973
A new study sponsored by NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center has highlighted the prospect that global industrial civilisation could collapse in coming decades due to unsustainable resource exploitation and increasingly unequal wealth distribution.“The fall of the Roman Empire, and the equally (if not more) advanced Han, Mauryan, and Gupta Empires, as well as so many advanced Mesopotamian Empires, are all testimony to the fact that advanced, sophisticated, complex, and creative civilizations can be both fragile and impermanent.”Do you think this could be plausible ?http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/03/14/nasa-industrial-civilization-headed-for-irreversible-collapse/
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