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Do you think WWII was the end of the "European Civil War?" PLEASE HELP

Home › Forums › Modern Europe › World War II › Do you think WWII was the end of the "European Civil War?" PLEASE HELP

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  • December 17, 2008 at 1:57 am #1414 Reply
    Zues33
    Participant

    I am in dire need of help as soon as possible..I just would like your thoughts on this I do know there isn't a true “European Civil War”  But with all the hardships and problems in Europe do you agree or disagree this was the final act if the unsaid Civil war? PLEASE HELP

    December 17, 2008 at 2:13 am #14365 Reply
    Zues33
    Participant

        Stuck in a rut and need your insights? There are no literal books on this matter more opinion… need some thoughts…

    December 17, 2008 at 2:33 am #14366 Reply
    DonaldBaker
    Participant

    I am in dire need of help as soon as possible..I just would like your thoughts on this I do know there isn't a true “European Civil War”  But with all the hardships and problems in Europe do you agree or disagree this was the final act if the unsaid Civil war? PLEASE HELP

    No it was not.  The Cold War, more specifically, the fall of the Berlin Wall ended the European Civil War.

    December 17, 2008 at 2:35 am #14367 Reply
    DonaldBaker
    Participant

        Stuck in a rut and need your insights? There are no literal books on this matter more opinion… need some thoughts…

    I answered this in the other thread you posted.  No definitely not the final act as the reunification of Germany and the fall of the Iron Curtain was the final act.

    December 17, 2008 at 2:54 am #14368 Reply
    Zues33
    Participant

    You think so? I was leaning towards that it was in a sense… I know mind you there were problems still and dividers but as a whole you don't think it was a end as to they all just made due to get along to their best ability for the sake of a 3rd ww not to break out????

    December 17, 2008 at 5:21 am #14369 Reply
    Phidippides
    Keymaster

    The two topics basically on the same topic that you started have been merged into one.

    December 17, 2008 at 6:26 am #14370 Reply
    scout1067
    Participant

    I have issues with the whole concept of a “European Civil War”.  The nations of Europe have too much individual identity for this concept to hold much water.

    December 17, 2008 at 6:49 am #14371 Reply
    Zues33
    Participant

    I agree with the above post… I think this is a very difficult question to answer. Europe as a whole? I could see Germany. This is why I posed on here to hear your thoughts

    December 17, 2008 at 9:23 am #14372 Reply
    scout1067
    Participant

    I guess this would be an intriguing idea for the whole EU crowd to latch onto.  If the idea gained traction it could be used a s a political football to argue for the closer union that the political elites seem to want.My trouble with the notion is that the nations of Europe, while they share a common civilisation, have developed so differently both in their national and ethnic growth that the idea of a civl war being possible seems false.  There is too much ethnic and national divergence for their to be a true European Civil War.  The people of Europe dont see themselves as part of one whole they envision themselves within their own national context.  I don't know anyone who considers themself a European, evryone I know thinks of themselve as German, Czech, French, Greek, etc.  I just don't think the idea holds water.  It is intriguing though.

    December 17, 2008 at 1:33 pm #14373 Reply
    skiguy
    Moderator

    There are no literal books on this matter

    As well there shouldn't be.  When was Europe ever united as one?  Never.  And I have to ask how can there be a civil war between different countries?  That makes no sense at all.

    they all just made due to get along to their best ability for the sake of a 3rd ww not to break out

    They thought that about WWI (the war to end all wars) too.

    December 17, 2008 at 9:46 pm #14374 Reply
    DonaldBaker
    Participant

    I do think there is a culture in Europe for Europeans to see themselves as “Europeans.”  World War II was a war to unite Europe under the Aegis of Nazism, while the Allies fought against it to keep the Continent divided according to the territorial sovereignty of the individual nation-states.  But now with the European Union formed, it can be argued (albeit a stretch), that the Allies really wanted to unite Europe under their own economic and socio-political model which we now have.  Rome actually united Europe and held it that way for several centuries.  Charlemagne tried to re-unify it under the auspices of the Holy Roman Empire (which was neither Holy nor Roman).  Napoleon tried to unite under the French Revolutionary umbrella, but his model was rejected by Britain and Russia.  Then Hitler took his turn.  So the idea that Europeans always wanted a supra-national state is a given, but the question has always remained how? and by whom?

    December 25, 2008 at 11:17 am #14375 Reply
    Daniel
    Participant

    …with all the hardships and problems in Europe do you agree or disagree this [WWII] was the final act if the unsaid Civil war? 

    No.  If WWII had ended all the hardships and problems in Europe it would not have been followed by the Cold War.  Furthermore, who said European problems/hardships/divisions have ended?  What is happening now in the Balkans, Russia, etc. makes such a notion absurd.I think your idea of looking at World War II as an “unsaid Civil War” is faulty.  World War II was just another in a long series of wars in which one person/nation/alliance tried to gain an advantage over others.There has never been a European Civil War.  European wars have always been about one or more nations gaining an advantage over one or more other nations.  That includes World War II and the Cold War.I acknowledge that some people in Europe consider themselves European.  (Although I don't see that as including the Russians, who in both territory and population form the largest nation in Europe.) To the extent Europeans have fought among themselves for centuries they have a common history.  But they lack a common government, currency, language, alphabet, cuisine, religion, etc.  So I?m not ready to agree Europe has a common culture. Furthermore, I cannot see how anyone can claim Europe is or ever has been a single polity.  What I?ll stipulate is that in time Europe–more likely Western Europe–may become a nation.Civil Wars are fought within a nation?not between or among nations.   Europe has never been united as a single nation. Scotland, Germany, Scandinavia, and Eastern Europe were never part of the Roman Empire.  Scandinavia, Spain, Hungary, the Bulkans, etc. were never part of the Carolingian Empire.  Scandinavia, England, France, etc. were never part of the Holy Roman Empire.  Great Britain and Portugal never come under Napoleon's control. And when has Russia–a major player in WWII and the largest nation in Europe–ever been part of anything that includes Western Europe? For that matter, when has the United Kingdom even been fully integrated into anything that includes all of Western Europe?  Today all the Western European nations do not even use the Euro–a very good indication that even Western Europe is still far from united.  Again, I fail to see how Europe can be said to have had a civil war–or even an “unsaid civil war.”  Plus, as I said above, World War II did not end the problems/differences that have always divided Europe.

    December 25, 2008 at 12:55 pm #14376 Reply
    Daniel
    Participant

    Rome actually united Europe and held it that way for several centuries.  Charlemagne tried to re-unify it under the auspices of the Holy Roman Empire (which was neither Holy nor Roman).  Napoleon tried to unite under the French Revolutionary umbrella, but his model was rejected by Britain and Russia.  Then Hitler took his turn.  So the idea that Europeans always wanted a supra-national state is a given, but the question has always remained how? and by whom?

    Donald?how about re-thinking that statement.I see evidence that many leaders/nations have tried to conqure Europe, but I don't see evidence that Europeans have ever really wanted to unite.  On the contrary, many nations/peoples have always resisted when a strong leader has tried to unite Europe.  Nor do I think it can be said Europe has ever been united as a single nation.  As I posted above:Scotland, Germany, Scandinavia, and Eastern Europe were never part of the Roman Empire.  Scandinavia, Spain, Hungary, the Bulkans, etc. were never part of the Carolingian Empire.  Scandinavia, England, France, etc. were never part of the Holy Roman Empire.  Great Britain and Portugal never come under Napoleon's control. And when has Russia–a major player in WWII and the largest nation in Europe–ever been part of anything that includes Western Europe? For that matter, when has the United Kingdom even been fully integrated into anything that includes all of Western Europe?  Today all the Western European nations do not even use the Euro–a very good indication that even Western Europe is still far from united.

    December 25, 2008 at 3:21 pm #14377 Reply
    DonaldBaker
    Participant

    I was referring to the aristocratic elites (Moravians, Carolingians, Habsburgs, Hoenzollerns, Romanovs, Napoleon, Hitler etc….).  They wanted Europe united under their respective auspices.  The EU is an economic venture that has become political.  It doesn't unify cultures, but it does unify economies.  Europe was already integrated economically anyway.

    December 27, 2008 at 3:10 pm #14378 Reply
    scout1067
    Participant

          Stuck in a rut and need your insights? There are no literal books on this matter more opinion… need some thoughts…

    There are in fact, books that address this revisionist issue.  One of them is The War of the World by Niall Ferguson.  This is an intriguing theory but one that is also easy to poke holes in.  If the last century represented a European Civil war then what about The Seven Years War, The Thirty Years War, and the Napoleonic Wars to name just a few.  This is an idea that just does not hold water no matter how attractive it is to revisionist and postmodern historians.

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