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Lessons for Modern Day America from Ancient Rome

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  • November 13, 2010 at 2:42 pm #2491 Reply
    historyscientist
    Participant

    The analogy between modern America and Ancient Rome is at least imperfect.The Americans aren't surrounded by hordes of barbarians. They do have some pressure from unwanted immigration from Mexico, but they are hardly the Alemanni or the Huns. And they want to work when they get not occupy the place.In Rome under the emperors most of the resources ended up in the hands of the army, who pretty much called all the shots. US military spending is colossal and out of all proportion to its true defence needs, and is no doubt largely for the benefit of private interests. But it is only 4.6% of GDP. That is hardly overstretch.Economic policy was equally reckless in both cases, and in Rome the currency actually did collapse and become worthless under Aurelian. But the empire carried on. Ultimately any state can survive as long as it retains the strength to maintain its authority. Rome finally fell, 200 years after total economic melt down, as a result of external attack not internal decline. The lesson for modern day America is you can get away with just about anything so long as you have military power. And they do. Who is going to stop them?

    November 13, 2010 at 3:46 pm #23090 Reply
    donroc
    Participant

    The analogy between modern America and Ancient Rome is at least imperfect.The lesson for modern day America is you can get away with just about anything so long as you have military power. And they do. Who is going to stop them?

    Perhaps politicians like Reid ( “We have lost the war.”) and followers with the same Vichy mentality who lack the will to fight or even the patriotism to serve in the military.

    November 14, 2010 at 5:00 am #23091 Reply
    Jake10
    Participant

    Americans are not surrounded by barbarians, but today geography is global, and attacks are economical more than military. The Taliban can attack through travel routes, the Internet, and from within. I heard a recent quote about them encouraging followers to launch as many attacks as possible, because, even if they don't succeed, they cost money and disrupt the US. China's currency and manufacturing of knockoffs is another front we need to think about. If we look at Rome, we see that they were most prosperous when they were united. They fought an array of internal conflicts. I wonder what the total number of Roman soldiers that  died at the hands of other Roman soldiers is? I think unification is what can strengthen the US more than anything else. A leader like Constantine did it in Rome. I hope the US can see the same thing now.

    November 14, 2010 at 10:08 am #23092 Reply
    historyscientist
    Participant

    The unity point is a very good one.  The enemies of America probably have more to fear from the million moderate march than they do from vociferous extremists.  The people who are weakening America most are likely to be the ones that are accusing Obama of being a communist or denigrating Bush as a half wit.

    November 14, 2010 at 10:09 pm #23093 Reply
    garbanzo
    Participant

    The unity point is a very good one.  The enemies of America probably have more to fear from the million moderate march than they do from vociferous extremists.  The people who are weakening America most are likely to be the ones that are accusing Obama of being a communist or denigrating Bush as a half wit.

    Shouldn't your last point say strengthening instead of weakening? Questioning the government is paramount to American independence and politicians should always be held 'up to the flame' to remind them of their role in representing the people. If everybody just relaxed and let the government do as they pleased the 13 colonies would still be under the British crown. I don't much care for Obama now nor did I when he was elected, not because I think he's a “communist” but because he failed to bring about positive change that everybody was hyping.Furthermore the xenophobia I would certainly say is fabricated. How many times does the mass media tell people about the 'Axis of Evil' and the enemies are real and 'among us', yet all that happens as a result is the post-9/11 paranoia like the alleged terrorists in the suburbs of Buffalo, NY. I, for one, strongly believe that 'terrorism' is the new Red Scare. See the works of Leo Strauss if you want to see some of the reasons why.I am convinced that there are many similarities between modern U.S. and the Roman Empire but there are far more differences. I think there is a danger in correlating the two too strongly and drawing conclusions as a result, but it's fine to make allegories all day long just so long as you don't fall into the habit of creating 'whiggish' history because you are convinced that the similarities might be too strong.

    November 14, 2010 at 10:31 pm #23094 Reply
    skiguy
    Moderator

    I agree with all you say except for this:

    Furthermore the xenophobia I would certainly say is fabricated. How many times does the mass media tell people about the 'Axis of Evil' and the enemies are real and 'among us', yet all that happens as a result is the post-9/11 paranoia like the alleged terrorists in the suburbs of Buffalo, NY. I, for one, strongly believe that 'terrorism' is the new Red Scare. See the works of Leo Strauss if you want to see some of the reasons why.

    Bombs on UPS planes, subway bombings in London and Madrid, car bomb in Times Square to name a few.  Are all these alleged fabrications?  I don't think so.As for xenophobia; there's always been an “Us” vs “Them” mentality since the beginning of civilization.  Sometimes it's hyped by the media, but still, for the most part, it's real.  There are always going to be enemies. We can never let our guard down.  I'd rather the threat be exaggerated than ignored.

    November 15, 2010 at 12:23 am #23095 Reply
    Jake10
    Participant

    The unity point is a very good one.  The enemies of America probably have more to fear from the million moderate march than they do from vociferous extremists.  The people who are weakening America most are likely to be the ones that are accusing Obama of being a communist or denigrating Bush as a half wit.

    Shouldn't your last point say strengthening instead of weakening? Questioning the government is paramount to American independence and politicians should always be held 'up to the flame' to remind them of their role in representing the people. If everybody just relaxed and let the government do as they pleased the 13 colonies would still be under the British crown. I don't much care for Obama now nor did I when he was elected, not because I think he's a “communist” but because he failed to bring about positive change that everybody was hyping.Furthermore the xenophobia I would certainly say is fabricated. How many times does the mass media tell people about the 'Axis of Evil' and the enemies are real and 'among us', yet all that happens as a result is the post-9/11 paranoia like the alleged terrorists in the suburbs of Buffalo, NY. I, for one, strongly believe that 'terrorism' is the new Red Scare. See the works of Leo Strauss if you want to see some of the reasons why.I am convinced that there are many similarities between modern U.S. and the Roman Empire but there are far more differences. I think there is a danger in correlating the two too strongly and drawing conclusions as a result, but it's fine to make allegories all day long just so long as you don't fall into the habit of creating 'whiggish' history because you are convinced that the similarities might be too strong.

    garbanzo, I agree that we need to be able to point out flaws in government in an effort to improve. Being able to face the truth is a strength because we can correct mistakes and prevent them from re-occurring. What historyscientist is talking about, however, is false propaganda spread about us by our own people. We know that others are going to do it, but when we hear North American people claiming that we planned Pearl Harbor, or that Obama is a communist, it becomes an internal division. We cannot give in to paranoia, but we have to be aware. 9/11 was successful because the authorities were off guard. It doesn?t mean that we should keep an eye on every Muslim; that leads to racism. But, having strict security and investigating suspicious actions is a way of saying that it?s better to be safe than sorry, especially when we know they want to hurt us.  As for analogies from Rome, one of the main objectives of studying history is to prevent the same mistakes from reoccurring, and to seek good examples as a reference for decisions. It all comes down to human nature, which is so complex that we can never fully understand it, but looking at an empire with similarities to our own can give us insight about ourselves. The Roman Empire lasted 600 years partly because they were able to bounce back from defeat. This is something we need to be able to do.  The fact that they did it doesn?t? mean we automatically will, but some of the parallels can assist us in finding out how to. Of course, in modern times that will have to be done in a different way, but some of the concepts that worked for them will surely work for us.

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