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April 13, 2010 at 6:51 pm #2095April 13, 2010 at 7:22 pm #20261
Wilson was an idealist, an academic and a politician. He was rigid, self righteous, and thought littleof the morality or practices of great power politics. He had the biggest stick at the peace conference ashe had the only nation with fresh troops, a huge untouched industrial capacity and lots of capital.Many books have been written about this strange man and he cannot be viewed without taking intoconsideration his second wife and Colonel House. The 14 Points, the basis on which Germany enteredinto an armistice, was a wonderful document if you believed as Wilson did, that man is sinful, butperfectible and thus willing to work together for the greater good of mankind if only given the rightinstitutions and capable leadership. (think Clavin)I have read a lot about him and although he is a bit boring, his actions and his attempts to deal withthe real politicians of Europe--Clemenceau and Lloyd George make for amusing reading. Apoplexy lurked behind each conference room door and eventually he was felled trying to convince his fellowAmericans that the treaty was a good thing. This leads me to buy into the real GREAT 20th CENTURY WAR thesis which suggests that the warcame in three acts, or four with the revised version. 1. Act I 1914-19182. Intermission 1918-1939 (sort of)3. Act II 1939-19454. Act IV 1945-Fall of the Soviet Union and the morphing of China into something still questionableIn some respects it reminds me of the 30 years war--starting out small and then growing larger andmore horrible as new players are brought into the conflict, exhaust their blood and treasure and reachout further to the periphery for more resources.As far as I now there has been no real new material available on this subject for some time, but thenI have not really delved into it for at least a decade. Fascinating subject this.April 13, 2010 at 7:29 pm #20262
Wars shred Constitutions.?Baldwin was one of thousands of Americans in jail in November of 1918 for violating the 1917 Selective Service Act or for violating the Espionage Act of 1917 or its amended 1918 version, known also as the Sedition Act, which condemned dissenting voices that allegedly threatened the security of the nation at war. In October one man had been sentenced to six months in the workhouse for saying he preferred Germany?s kaiser to President Wilson. Another was sentenced to ten years in prison for delivering speeches in which he called conscription unconstitutional. Yet another received a twenty-year sentence and a fine of $10,000 for telling a Liberty Bond salesman that not only did he not want to buy any bonds but he also hoped the ?government would go to hell.??April 13, 2010 at 9:51 pm #20263DonaldBakerParticipant
What was Act III?April 13, 2010 at 10:43 pm #20264WallyParticipant
.... This leads me to buy into the real GREAT 20th CENTURY WAR thesis which suggests that the warcame in three acts, or four with the revised version. 1. Act I 1914-19182. Intermission 1918-1939 (sort of)3. Act II 1939-19454. Act
IV[III?] 1945-Fall of the Soviet Union and the morphing of China into something still questionable.... Fascinating subject this.
Indeed, agreed all counts and FWIW the thesis I taught on the matter.Notch, I found your commentary very good... you summed the 14 Points and what they should have done very well. Just not sure all the boundary adjustments, in 5, were totally Hoyle or the natives' self-determination really a priority.April 13, 2010 at 11:01 pm #20265
Wally:I failed Roman NumeralsWillyDApril 13, 2010 at 11:03 pm #20266
Notch–you are young and unaware of geezer error!I failed Roman Numerals as I was fascinated at the time by the number base 12 and Anne Shannahan's neck--I sat behind her in class--major distraction.WillyDApril 13, 2010 at 11:25 pm #20267WallyParticipant
Wally:I failed Roman NumeralsWillyD
Me too; had a helluva time trying to teach them to the 6th grades... so the student teachers did this usually (also tough trying to figure out the year a movie was filmed, etc.) ;DYeah, the girl on front of me in math was a honey too and my grade went in the dumper as well. ::)April 14, 2010 at 12:43 am #20268NotchParticipant
Notch--you are young and unaware of geezer error!I failed Roman Numerals as I was fascinated at the time by the number base 12 and Anne Shannahan's neck--I sat behind her in class--major distraction.WillyD
Thanks for the young part... mid 40's and young.. I like it 😉April 14, 2010 at 8:09 am #20269scout1067Participant
Wilson was an Idealist who should have known his 14 Points would be ignored at the first opportunity. They only apply if everyone feels safe and that will probably never happen. You simply cannot make everybody happy at the same time.April 14, 2010 at 10:50 am #20270DonaldBakerParticipant
Wilson was an Idealist who should have known his 14 Points would be ignored at the first opportunity. They only apply if everyone feels safe and that will probably never happen. You simply cannot make everybody happy at the same time.
Oh but didn't you hear? Obama just made the world safe by getting a bunch of nations to promise to secure their nuclear weapons in four years and we're gonna start reducing our stockpiles too. Golly, I sure do feel safer already.April 14, 2010 at 12:48 pm #20271scout1067Participant
I think I have said it already, if not on this forum, that we have elected another misguided Idealist like Wilson. Wonder of wonders, he is a Democrat too. I wonder if there is a list somewhere of American presidents classified by party and their degree of Idealism or Realism? I should look and if not, maybe make one.April 14, 2010 at 3:18 pm #20272nkulerParticipant
“12.The Turkish portion of the present Ottoman Empire should be assured a secure sovereignty, but the other nationalities which are now under Turkish rule should be assured an undoubted security of life and an absolutely unmolested opportunity of autonomous development, and the Dardanelles should be permanently opened as a free passage to the ships and commerce of all nations under international guarantees.Not sure this had much influence. It was important to the Russians, but again, they really could have cared less about what anyone was putting in place as they planned on domination in the future anyway."Not in terms of WW2 but this didn't hold up even a year as it was percieved by the Turks - rightly IMO - as a limitation of our soveregnity. It would have been impossible to defend the then capitol Istanbul with the Dardanelles being open to anyone and everyone. This was also one of the reasons Ataturk moved the capitol to Ankara to benefit from its central location.
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